Mount Olive Township Council Minutes
May 29, 2001

The Special Public Meeting of the Mount Olive Township Council was called to order at 7:30pm by Council President Rattner with the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.

According to the Open Public Meetings Act, adequate Notice of this Meeting has been given to the Mt. Olive Chronicle and the Morristown Daily Record. Notice has been posted at in the Municipal Building, 204 Flanders-Drakestown Road, Mt. Olive, New Jersey, and notices were sent to those requesting the same.

ROLL CALL: Present: Mr. Heymann, Mr. Guenther, Mr. Sohl,

Mrs. Kelly, Mr. Scapicchio, President Rattner.

Absent: Mr. Spino

President Rattner: I would also like to acknowledge the attendance of the Mayor, Paul Licitra; the Business Administrator, Sandy Kaplan; the Township Attorney, John Dorsey; and Township Clerk, Lisa Lashway.

Mayor Licitra: I wanted to introduce you to Scott Gaskill. Scott has been hired as a Computer Administrator. Brand new. Today was his first day, and I thought it was appropriate that all new employees, managers and such should come up and be introduced by the Council. So that is why I am doing so. Scott, welcome aboard.

Scott Gaskill: Thank you.


President Rattner: Okay, we=re going to open the Public Hearing on the Proposed changes in the 1991 Master Plan for Turkey Brook Park. The Administration has been working extremely hard with a lot of resources for the last six, eight months. So I=m going to turn it over to Mr. Kaplan right now, who is going to have, I=m sure, some of the Township Professionals explain exactly what this Public Hearing is to accomplish, what the Statutory requirements are.

Mr. Kaplan: I=m going to turn it over to Mr. Casey, the Special Project Coordinator for Turkey Brook, he will explain everything.

Mr. Dorsey: Bob, do you want me to handle this part of it?

Mr. Casey: Do you want to start?

Mr. Dorsey: All right, the Record is running as we say, and this Public Hearing has been called, essentially, for two specific purposes. The first is to satisfy a requirement of the DEP before it will issue its final approval as to the development of Turkey Brook Park. That aspect of the Public Hearing is really the only matter, which is open for Public Hearing in terms of a Record. It is a review of the revised plans for Turkey BrookCrevisions since the 1991 Master Plan, and as to the impact, or effect of those changes on the existing environmental conditions in the park, including any impact on wildlife, environmentally sensitive areas, steep slopes, wetlands, wetland transition area, and proposed natural areas of development. Mr. Casey, as proposed that after we complete that aspect, which is the Public Hearing, he will then go into, and we will entertain comments from people as to other details beyond essentially the environmental impact of the changes which have been made to the 1991 Master Plan. Bob, do you want to begin by making any explanation you want--

Mr. Casey: Yes, I=d like to basically outline those changes.

Mr. Dorsey: Okay, so those changes deal with the environmental situation

Mr. Casey: Correct. Thank you, John. What you see here is a plan that was prepared in 1991, which was part of the original application package to get State assistance to purchase the property. In this plan, it showedCFlanders Road is at the top. It showed all the playing fields, and all the development on the Flanders side of the hill. This is the top of the hill about here. This is everything which goes down towards Flanders Road. It had all the development in there, etc. The back portion of the hill, toward the pond, the area was basically maintained as what was called a Agreat lawn@Cjust an open grass area for whatever. And, then a wildflower meadow area. There was trails, etc., around the pond. This plan was prepared in =91, submitted to the State, the Township received funding in =94, =95, partially predicated upon this plan. Predicated upon the development of the site for recreation purposes, with the understanding that because of all the woodland area, etc., there was an environmentally sensitive site, and therefore these areas were being preserved for non-development use. When the Township actually began the development plans because of the growth in the Recreation Program, etc. they evolved a revised plan for the Park. Basically, what you seeChere is the top of the hill here. What has basically occurred, in the back portionCthis area hereCthere is now proposed to be approximately four or five soccer fields and three baseball fields. The areaCthe wooded area, the area around the pond, the wetlands area, steep slope areas, there has been no plans. There has been a limited amount of clearing into the wooded area, slightly. You can=t really see it here, but the existing treeline comes out like this, so there=s a slight movement in that direction, which was required to put the baseball fields in. There is no proposed development in the area, which is currently heavy-wooded. That area is still being preserved for wildlife, open space. We have presented this plan to the Office of Green Acres. The Office of Green Acres has basically indicated to us that because the Township is changing the proposed use in this lower portionCthe back portion of the hill, that we would have to prepare a report from a Wildlife Expert to indicate whether this change, i.e., the deletional portion of the great lawn and the wildflower meadow would, in fact, impact upon the wildlife on the site, or have other environmental consequences on the site. The Township has employed a Wildlife Expert who has prepared a Report, which has been filed with the Township, indicating that because the Township has not changed the wooded areas, and because of the other activity going on around the Park, in his opinion, there was no significant environmental impact to what the Township is proposing to do. And, indicated that Report is on file with the Clerk, and was available for your review, and has already been sent to the Department of Environmental Protection, Green Acres. The second criteria that we had to do was to notify everybody within 200= so that the residents could come forth with any comments they may have as to the Environmental Impact of the proposed change. And that is the real purpose for this meeting right nowCthe first part of this meeting is, the proposed change in the Park design as it impacts on the environmental issues, which were outlined originally in 1991 and have been slightly modified for 1999. And that is the specific issue that we have before us that we=d be happy to entertain comments or answer questions on. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Dorsey: All right, now everyone that comes up. Courtesy would be bestCespecially since the Clerk=s Office has to prepare this transcript as quickly as possible, the first thing you must do is identify yourselfCname and address. Then, you could begin by confining yourself to the issues that Mr. Casey has just referred toCi.e., the Environmental issue. That would be helpful. Then I believe he is going to go into other issuesCafter we close the Public Hearing. So, anyone that wants to speak as to the environmental issues, please come forward, name, address, and any comment you wish to make.

Mrs. Charlotte Wilson, 83 Woodbine Avenue, Budd Lake: I just have a question on the soccer fields and the baseball fields. How muchClike dirtCsince that=s slopey back thereCthat slopes, and I would imagine it=s going to have to be level because of fields. What does that do to how much dirt you=re going to have to move around and, has there been anything to determine as far as how that would effect drainage down the hillClike toward the pond. Has that been looked at all environmentally?

Mr. Casey: The answer is, AYes, it has been.@ The design standards that have been involved in this developmentCandC

President Rattner: BobC

Mrs. Wilson: You need to be on here, I=m sorry.

Mr. Casey: The site has been designed with two retention ponds so as to prevent storm water from migrating off the site. The site has also been designed from environmental standpoint that we have an on-site drainage system so that the drain will go to these ponds and will recirculate that water so that we will not have a problem because of the fertilizer, etc. migrating off site, they=d be captured in these two retention ponds and then our irrigation system will recycle the water back on top of the existing playing fields. So, the site was basically designed to capture as much as possible any activity on the site and prevent it from migrating off the site. Either downhill towards the lake, or downhill this way, towards Turkeybrook and the South Branch. We have the on-site storm-water designs which have been reviewed by the Soil Conservation District, and basically, they=re in agreement on it.

Mr. Dorsey: All right, anyone else? Mr. Bonte?

Mr. Richard Bonte, Budd Lake: Just a comment on what appears to be happening to the Park here. It appears that we=ve gone from an original plan which is really a low-intensity, non-scheduled, lazy Saturday Afternoon-type park environment to a high schedule, high intensity sports complex. Is that what the Council wishes to do with a park that originally appeared to just have a lot of Open Space, a place for people to go, relax, whatever activities come to mind on a specific day, as opposed to what appears to be, kind of into a scheduled high level event?

Mr. Dorsey: That=s a comment. Fine.

Mr. Bonte: No comments from anybody else?

Mr. Dorsey: Anyone else on the Environmental issues dealing with the Park?

President Rattner: Okay, seeing nobody else, I=ll guess we=ll close the Public Portion.

Mr. Dorsey: Excuse me, Mr. Casey, do you have any closing comments?

Mr. Casey: I have no other comment.

Mr. Dorsey: So we understand we=re going to close the Public Hearing on the Environmental issues, and wildlife. And that is the information you need quickly from the Clerk=s Office. Correct?

Mr. Casey: Yes.

Mr. Dorsey: Okay, just say quicklyC

President Rattner: Okay, one final chance. Anybody else?

Mr. Bob Elms, Budd Lake: What are you going to do with the water in the retention ponds in the Fall, Winter and Spring?

Mr. Casey: Of course the retention pond will also be a detention pond, and it will be basically water retained outside at all times. It is not anticipated in terms of the use of that for recreational purposes, that is not on there at this point in our schedule.

Mr. Elms: Yes, but what do you do in the winter time when the detention ponds fill up? How do you go about getting rid of the water? Right now, you=re planning on using it for irrigation, but you=re not going to be irrigating in the winter time.

Mr. Casey: The detention pond that=s near the site will have an overflow channel which will flow down the hill. That is being maintained. The detention pond in front will be channeled into the stormwater system along the road we will have control over discharge, so we will discharge to that existing stormwater system there. (INAUDIBLE)

Mr. Elms: So when you=re not irrigating, you will be discharging through three inch pipes or whatever it calls?

Mr. Casey: That=s correct.

President Rattner: Thank you, Mr. Elms, anybody else?

Mr. Dan Nelson, Flanders: Good evening, Dan Nelson, Flanders. Did the detention pond in the backCif I=m not mistaken, you said that you=d serve to pick up some of the run-off from the fieldsCfertilizersCand then did you say the over-flow would go down toward Meyer=s Pond?

Mr. Casey: The issue that was raisedCthe Town will not use the water for irrigation purposes.

Mr. Nelson: Uh-huh.

Mr. Casey: Yes, at that point, if we have a heavy rain, etc., the pond will obviously fill up. If in fact it=s what=s being used to draw down, there will be a spillway and it will dischargeCthat will be a time when it=s a non-active park so we shouldn=t be discharging anywhereCfertilizers, etc. because they basically would be non-seasonal. During the season we=ll be pumping up--back on the property.

Mr. Nelson: Okay. So it has been thought ofCthe discharge of fertilizers, etc. Thank you.

President Rattner: Thank you. Anybody else?

Mr. David Pariseau, 7 Sunset Drive: On this planCyou=ve added five soccer fields. Has anybody considered the environmental impact of how many carsChow many more people that are taken to this area? Has that been addressed? Or is that part of your presentation?

Mr. Casey: The issue of the traffic isCbut I will discuss that at the next portion of the Hearing.

Mr. Pariseau: Okay.

Mr. Casey: Green Acres standpoint, the park was always intended to have a certain amount of activity.

Mr. Pariseau: Correct.

Mr. Casey: So the intensification of that activity, they feel is within the original project application that was made in =91. The issue that I hope to discuss with everybody shortly is, we=ll review the traffic control, flows that we had projected for this park.

Mr. Pariseau: Okay, that=s the second part of this? Okay.

Mr. Dorsey: All right, let=s just have the Record show that Mr. Casey and every witness was referring to two maps. The first map is entitled ATurkeybrook Park@ appeared in 1991, and the second map is also entitled AMt. Olive Turkeybrook Park@ I guess it is identified or dated 2001. So, the Record will be clear, there are two maps, and you=ll want to include with the transcript a copy of those maps so it will be understandable.

President Rattner: Okay, at this point, I don=t see anyone else wishing to address this matter, so I=ll close the Public Session.

Mr. Dorsey: You are closing the Public Hearing as to the issues raised by Green Acres/DEP in connection with the Township=s Grant.

President Rattner: Okay, I=ll take a Motion to Close the Public Hearing.

Mr. Sohl: So moved.

Mr. Guenther: Second.

President Rattner: Any discussion?

ROLL CALL: Passed unanimously

Mr. Casey: With the Chair=s permission, I=d like to spend a few moments so I can explain, in some detail, the actual proposal for Turkey Brook Park.

President Rattner: Sure.

Mr. Casey: Then we=ll get into the issues of traffic and off-site storm water management, etc. because I know some people are concerned with. What we have on the development of Turkey Brook Park is, all the planning we=ve done for the Park has been future full out development. It is not anticipated there was funding available to build what you see up here at this point in time. This is to be scheduled in probably two, three programs, projects as money becomes available. The proposal that we=re looking for in the short-term, i.e., the year 2001 B2002, really, this central portion back in hereCis fourCsix soccer fields, two volleyball fields, a football fieldCin this area on the top, plus, the underground facilities required for the future growth of the park. What we=ve done is designed everything for the maximum development to track the flowsCthe storm water flows, the water, the sewer, etc. So that as the park is developing incrementally, we can add on to the piping that=s in place. That=s why there=s a little partCthe first fight of this park development is an expensive fight because of that very issue of siting everything for park development. Let me go and discussCfirst of all if you go a little bit further on the issue of storm water and sewer, everybody is aware of what=s happening. The storm waterCthe park has a dividing line right hereCacrossCit flows right about here, across the topCso we actually have two sets of storm water systems. One will flow this way, one will flow that way. In addition, we are picking u the storm water that will flow along Flanders Road. There will be a detention pond hereCalso a portion of that there will be a retention pond where a certain amount of storm water retained on the site. The same will go for the back here. The reason for that retention portion is we intend to capture that water and reuse that water for an outside irrigation system. The water that the Township will retain for irrigation purposes will come to a well located hereCbehind Rickland VillageCoff siteCthere is an existing well there that was drilled in =87, =88, which will come to the Township as the development is completed, and that well will be used for irrigation. We will not use water from the existing Goldmine System, or any other systems on the top of the hill for irrigation purposes. The site will have bathroom facilitiesCobviously the pavilion, here and hereCabout four different locations. This site will be connected to the sewer system, which is place along Flanders Road. The domestic workCi.e. drinking water on site will also come up from the water system that=s in the road. Okay? So we separated the two water systemsCthe primary water used on site, obviously, irrigation water, will come from a separate well. It will not encroach at all upon existing water. The two systems are designedCparticularly this one along the front, to withstand a 100 year stormCwhich we all know, we have a 100 year storm every three B four yearsCbut, that=s the engineering calculation they use. It is designed to contain here on siteCthat water will flow 100 year storm and then basically meter out excess flows into the existing storm sewer that=s in the road. So, what we=re doing, we=re capture the heavy flows then meter that out when the rest of it flows through the system, as you do with any on-site detention basin. We have constructed this basin so that it=s basically going to be bermed aroundCtechnically on SunsetCfor those that live on Sunset, we have a whole series of intended berms along this portion of the site so that the site will beCthere will be visible barrierCwe=re actually putting these berms up six B seven feet here so that, in fact any water that comes down here will not encroach on any of the people on Sunset Drive. We have a lot of detailsCif anybody wants to look at it.

Resident (from audience): What is the proposed life of that area?

President Rattner: Excuse meCwe can=t pick you upClet him make his presentation and then you can get up and ask specific questions.

Resident: I=m sorry.

Mr. Casey: Do you want me to answer it? (INAUDIBLE) If you live on Sunset, looking out your back, youre not going to see aCit will be a slope. One of the things that=s very confusing about this plan (INAUBIDLE) In reference to the on-site trafficCwe have done an analysis of the traffic flow on site. Again, assuming the maximum development we=re talkingCso it=s not going to happen short term. Our traffic analysis assumesCworst case scenario, it=s a nice warm day in May, when soccer has nine fields going, baseball has eight fields going, there are some people playing tennis, some people playing basketball, some people visitingCwe did a scenario based upon traffic flows on this side on a Saturday in May which would be your worst case. Based upon those traffic counts and what we did is we actually doubled the number of people who come for a team, how many cars would come if there are two teams playing. You figure on a staggard arrangement where everybody wouldn’t start/stop at the same time. Your start em in 15 minute increments, etc. to spread it out. Based upon that, there is a traffic crunch between 11:30 and 2:00. At that point in time you have people who been in early in the morning and are now leaving, and people are coming in so you have that turnover. Because of that line of traffic that we are projecting , the engineers made a decision to basically widen it to provide for a turn lane and to provide for acceleration and deceleration lane up against the park. The reason being, this means that someone is driving down the road, who does not want to go into the park, instead of going this way will simply have to keep on going. Likewise, the person going the other way, there is a free flow. If you want to turn into the park and your traveling from the Flanders area coming this way you pull in to the right turn lane. If your coming this way from Budd Lake, you drop in to the deceleration lane, and you pull into the park. So the intent was to keep two lanes free for traffic. To isolate the turning movements into two other new lanes that we’re going build. So we are proposing that the road will be widened to four lanes, we are proposing in that widening install water which will accumulate and cause that water to go into a detention pond so it will not, basically, go across the road and flood the residents on the other side of the road and we are trying to maintain, as much as we can, traffic flow along the road given the fact that when a field turnover occurs, i.e., this soccer field is now 11:30 and you’ve got, I think, 34 cars coming in and 34 cars going out two teams coming two teams going, etc, etc..That in fact, that can happen without dramatically impacting on the normal traffic flow along the road. That’s been the design criteria that we used to be reviewed, by the County traffic Engineer who basically feels that given the scope of the development that it is a reasonable way of attempting to contain that traffic because again, we are dealing with traffic which will peak for about 3 hours a week, which is Saturday morning when everything is built out. The stormwater traffic, water and sewer. I think that is basically enough of an open view at this point in time. I’ll be happy to answer any question that anyone may have.

Mr. David Pariseau, 7 Sunset Drive: My question would be to Mr. Dorsey as far as about the comment that the other gentleman had about changing it from kind of an unorganized sports park, to now, we have kind of a complex. Has that been addressed? I was not a resident of the township[ when the first plan came around. I moved here in 1994 so I guess the question would be when would that be addressed. Was the grant written to the unorganized sporting…

Mr. Dorsey: I think the initial grant was monies to acquire the plan for development, and I would say that it is about a year ago that the Township Council had a number of discussion and debates as to whether or not they wanted to turn this into an absolute first class recreational facility, with essentially facilities for every sport their. Was. I believe the Mayor’s thought was to centralize these athletic activities at this particular facility rather than to have them scattered throughout the Township for a number of reasons. So I would say that implicitly the Township Council has approved that going forward with a high intensity facility here rather than spreading them one field here and one field there to have one coordinated facility. That decision has been made and has essentially been confirmed.

Mr. Sohl: I think it’s just worth mentioning perhaps for the record

Mr. Guenther: I differ a little bit from that evaluation. I was a member of the original Turkey Brook Committee, there were other discussions that went on. The main motivation for converting this in to a more intensive sports facility was because the soccer fields were lost through the construction of the middle school. I think were all agreed that the members of the original members of the Turkey Brook Committee we wanted a more passive use as per the original scheme. Then the B & H property across the way was acquired. The Olympus group originally came in I believe, correct me if I am wrong I don’t know if Peter Duran is here. That they were looking at that as to develop for the soccer field. Because Turkey Brook was going to left accordance with to the 1991 plan. They determined that the B & H property was to hilly. That a more appropriate use for fields and sports facilities was Turkey Brook. I reluctantly went along with it. I live in the development as you all know I live down on Carson Road, not as close as you are, and I prefer to see it that way. I reluctantly went along because of the other dyer need that this town has for recreation facilities that it has not had. I don’t think with all do respect to Mr. Dorsey, I don’t think the discussion directly came up about centralizing facilities. There are other pieces of property that the Township owns where talked has occurred regarding developing those for other athletic fields. One specific that I am thinking was the Simsburg property which still sits there and no plans have been developed for, on the other side of Budd Lake. I don’t think there is any property in the Flanders area, but that could happen in the future. I don’t think the centralization was the basic driving force. I think it was a matter of necessity of the need for the recreation facilities to answer that question.

Mr. Sohl:


1. A Resolution awarding a contract for the preliminary grading of Turkey Brook Park




Motion made for adjournment. All in Favor, none Opposed. The Meeting was adjourned at


Steven W. Rattner

Council President

I, LISA M LASHWAY, Township Clerk of the Township of Mount Olive do hereby certify that the foregoing Minutes is a true and correct copy of the Minutes approved at a legally convened meeting of the Mount Olive Township Council duly held on May 29, 2001



Mount Olive Township Clerk








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Mount Olive Township
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Budd Lake, NJ 07828

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Budd Lake, N.J. 07828

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