Mt. Olive Township Council Minutes
March 5, 2002

This Special Public Meeting of the Mount Olive Township Council was called to order at 7:30pm by Council President Scapicchio with the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.


President Scapicchio: To continue with the policy that this Council has begun from the beginning of this year we would like to just ask everyone to share with us a moment of reflection in recognition of the men and women that fight terrorism around the world.

According to the Open Public Meetings Act, adequate Notice of this Meeting has been given to the Mt. Olive Chronicle and the Morristown Daily Record. Notice has been posted at in the Municipal Building, 204 Flanders-Drakestown Road, Mt. Olive Township, New Jersey, and notices were sent to those requesting the same.

ROLL CALL: Present: Mr. Guenther, Mr. Greenbaum, Mrs. Miller,
Mr. Perkins, Mr. Rattner, Mr. Spino, Mr. Scapicchio


President Scapicchio: We have two Public Comment sections at our Public Meetings. We will now open the floor for Public Comment for the first portion of this meeting. There are other items on this agenda in reference to Turkey Brook that everyone in the Public will have an opportunity to speak specifically on. This is a general open session for comments referenced to anything. Anyone from the Public have any comment? Seeing none, we will close the first portion of the public comment period.


Mayor Licitra: None at this time.


Ord. #10-2002 Bond Ordinance Providing a Supplemental Appropriation of $756,189 for Additional Park Improvements to Turkey Brook Park in and by the Township of Mount Olive, In the County of Morris (Supplemental Appropriation for Turkey Brook Park)

Mr. Rattner moved that Ord. #10-2002 be introduced by Title and Passed on First Reading and that a meeting be held on March 26, 2002. Mr. Spino seconded that motion.

President Scapicchio: Any Council Discussion?

Mr. Rattner: I have one question. This is more of a legal question, on the bond ordinance in section 1A it talks about the contribution from the Soccer Club. We are already appropriating that money, if we haven't got an agreement how do we appropriate or add that in to our capital funds if we don't have it? I am sure if we are going to have it within the two or three weeks based on some of the correspondence I have seen back and forth.

Mr. Dorsey: This is First Reading, it truly would have to be in the bag by March 26, 2002 before the ordinance can have any effect.

Mr. Rattner: Does that mean we have to have the funds otherwise we could not do it?

Mr. Dorsey: Yes or the Ordinance is not consistent with reality.

President Scapicchio: Mr. Rattner, I sent to each Council Member, I have had several discussions with Peter Jaran, President of the Mt. Olive Soccer Club and Mayor Licitra. We have language in a proposed agreement that I have sent everyone. Everyone should have had an opportunity to review that, including Mr. Dorsey. I think we are very close unless there are some comments that I am not aware of from any of the Council.

Mr. Rattner: I don't have any problems with the verbage it is more from.

President Scapicchio: Hold on a second Steve.

Mr. Rattner: I don't have to have that resolved now. The big concern I have is that we have been working with this for a year and a half and we have not been able to come to an agreement. If I remember, from over the past not just the recent memos, it was because certain terms in there especially from the Councils' standpoint cannot deliver because we cannot commit future Councils to a lot of the terms they have put in there, so I just wanted to make sure that we are really going to have that agreement and also I want to be able, that is why I want to ask later on for the two resolutions to move ahead and start construction even if we don't get that in time to make everything move.

President Scapicchio: After a discussion between the Mayor, Peter Jaran and myself there was a revised memorandum of understanding that was sent off to everybody. Mr. Dorsey's main concern is that there was some language within that document.

Mr. Dorsey: This issue has been addressed because now in Section 8 implementation, it says this "grants between the Township MOSC will be arbitrated utilizing a committee consisting to represent" etc. It contains an arbitration procedure.

President Scapicchio: This is for introduction, lets have Mr. Dorsey read the complete document to give us any comments back, at least I am of the opinion and I believe the Mayor is and we are real close to signing an agreement with the Soccer Club.

Mayor Licitra: I am not going to grandstand too many people that we have too much to do tonight. I'll say what I said last week.

President Scapicchio: Is the representation that I made accurate?

Mayor Licitra: Absolutely. As long as Peter has the letter.

ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously.


1. Resolution Re: Water Restrictions.

Mr. Greenbaum moved Resolution No. 1 and Mr. Rattner seconded that motion.

Mr. Perkins: One of my concerns is that it does not address any shrubbery that I could see in here.

President Scapicchio: Ray, excuse me one second. Just remember the Councils reference, there was a revised resolution that stated March 4, 2002. It should have been in front of your seat. Does everybody have that?

Mr. Perkins: The few things that jump straight out was that nowhere is this one which I believe was adopted after the Freeholders does it address ornamental shrubbery and that would obviously have to be addressed under item No. 6.

President Scapicchio: Item No. 4; the water for ornamental purposes, does that address your concern?

Mr. Perkins: Is grass considered ornamental? I would like to see an inclusion of lawn watering put in there, lawns and shrubs.

President Scapicchio: Would you like to add that under No. 4?

Mr. Perkins: That is probably the most important place.

Mrs. Miller: While we are on No. 4, I have a question. We received some information from some of the nurseries in Town asking that we don't restrict their watering and that's a commercial business, so perhaps we could put that phrase like a No. 1 non-commercial. It says non-commercial washing of cars and trucks, well why can't we have non-commercial watering of lawns and ornamentals because that would really devastate those companies if they weren't allowed to water their shrubbery that is their whole business.
Mr. Perkins: I have to ask our attorney, I believe that any water restrictions after the Governor has declared the State of Emergency that water restrictions then fall under the purview of the Mayor. Being that as it may, one would have to ask how that affects an individual well, especially in a commercial establishment. I think we have all seen enough on the news, as of lately where commercial nurseries are going to be quote on quote permitted at least at this point to continue to water their plants though nobody is going to be able to buy it because they absolutely will not be able to water them. I am not sure how we would go about addressing that, and if it is in our purview to address it.

Mr. Dorsey: The answer is this. Under the ordinance, under your Code, the Mayor has the right to issue water restrictions. It is my understanding from the Mayor that he issued water restrictions a month ago. Now the Governor has the right to supersede what anybody does. He has now issued water restrictions. Your water restrictions cannot be less than whatever the restrictions are that the Governor imposes. I don't think anybody has actually seen the restrictions, they are supposed to be issued tomorrow. Perhaps it's a little bit premature to know exactly what has to be required. The usual thing is to exempt commercial activities on the basis that if you don't exempt commercial activities such as landscaping and or car washes you essentially put them out of business. If the Governor does it that is fine then the State can pay the damages and not the Municipality, but at the moment you almost have to know what restrictions the State has in place to place this one.

Mr. Spino: Can we pass these as they are or as maybe a couple of words to be added then when the Governor's comes out, that will supercede this anyway.

Mr. Dorsey: There are two resolutions one that I drew and one the Council President Attempted to draw.

President Scapicchio: What do you mean attempted, I did.

Mr. Dorsey: You attempted. What maybe you want to say at the very end of this is BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that these restrictions if not consistent with those issued by the Governor of the State of New Jersey on March 5, 2002 shall be automatically revised to be consistent with those restrictions.

Mr. Perkins: One other comment that I did have is under item No. 6, where it addresses the non-emergency use of fire hydrants without sprinkler caps, that gives one the impression I think we have all seen where fire department will provide a four and a half inch nozzle with holes drilled in it so the kids could run through the stream, and that is not really appropriate conservation of a actual resource that we are running short on. So I would like to see us stop it right after the non-emergency use of fire hydrants.

President Scapicchio: Rob, do you want to reintroduce this resolution.

Mr. Greenbaum reintroduced Resolution No. 1 on the non-consent agenda with the amendment as proposed by Mr. Perkins and Mr. Dorsey. Mr. Rattner seconded that motion.

President Scapicchio: Any Public comment on this Resolution with respect to water restrictions? Seeing none we will close the public comment on this.

Mayor Licitra: We were ahead of everyone on this one. It just proves us out. I thank our DPW Director Mark DiGennaro for bringing it to our attention that maybe we should be ahead of the pack instead of following the pack. I think if we saved anything, then great, maybe we will have to restrict a little less. We talked to Trenton today, and I am positive we are going to get very deep into restrictions. It is going to come out tomorrow. I can almost perceive it being private wells also, even thought it is kind of unenforceable I still think it might be. So I rest assured that Mt. Olive was in the forefront on this.

President Scapicchio: Mayor, did you notice those restrictions in the legal paper of the Township? I ask that because our ordinance specifically requires a specific action be taken before you can implement other restrictions and they are as follows; it is required by Chapter 196 Section 32 of the Mt. Olive Township Code the Mayor is directed to publish the six restrictions or all its restrictions identified once in the legal newspaper of the Township of Mt. Olive and the requirement is that we post the same in at least three public places for at least three days prior to the effective date of those restrictions. So if we have not followed that specific criteria according to our ordinance, we can't enforce those restrictions.

Mayor Licitra: Ours was voluntary, and I just want you to take note Dave, that it has been in the local paper. The date was effective Sunday, January 6, 2002, so it has to be some time before that.
Mr. Dorsey: Lets put this in the context, the Governor has issued restrictions. The Governor is the supreme authority even in Mt. Olive, those restrictions are going to have to be complied with. If there are going to be additional restrictions issued pursuant to the request of the Councils' Resolution because it is essentially requested, then you are going to have to issue those. You are going to have to do the appropriate advertisement before they become effective for enforcement purposes.

Mr. Spino: When and if we have to do that I would have to suggest we post it not only here as a Public Place but in all the schools in Town also.

President Scapicchio: Great suggestion Earl.

Mayor Licitra: I'll make you a copy of this for the entire Council so you have it for your records.

Mr. Greenbaum: It was my understanding that we were going to get some information on the status of the water systems in the Town, I have not seen that information yet and I just request that again from the Administration that we get updated on any information which could be provided as to where our systems are currently, how many new well drilling permits have been issued so we could get a handle on exactly how bad the problem is in Mt. Olive. I read that letter to the editor about making fun of us for stopping people from washing their cars and watering their lawns in the middle of winter. While I did not agree with him, I am not sure that our water restrictions as currently in place go far enough. I know that Roxbury has adopted that ordinance with regard to hooking up to new housing developments into the water system. They have some kind of prohibition and that is something I would like to look at if are currently having a problem with our water systems. Thank you.

President Scapicchio: Mayor, could we get a report as requested by Mr. Greenbaum?

Mayor Licitra: When we go through Mr. DiGennaro's budget on Saturday he will gladly update you before.

ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously.

Mr. Dorsey: Excuse me Mr. President. One point here. Before you move No. 2 you better make a decisions as to which one of these contracts you would like to expedite. If you adopt No. 3 which is the major contract, the CFO can issue a certificate of availability of funds forthwith and than can start the process by which the contract can be notified and I am sure it is going to take at least a couple of weeks before he submits all of his bonds etc. Now if you adopt No. 2 tonight first, then you are not going to be able to have the CFO issue a certificate of availability of funds for the major $4 million contract until sometime in the future. It makes more sense to move No. 3 first and No. 2 second. If you move No. 3 first, I can guarantee you that not withstanding soft costs, not withstanding the possibility of litigation there is enough money so that the CFO can issue the certificate of availability forthwith and the process can begin.

Mr. Rattner: I just want to thank Mr. Dorsey for that comment. That is exactly the comment that I had last week. I still had a problem with looking at all the dollars. I did see that in the resolution you did take out that the $200,000 from the Soccer Club and it won't sink the whole project which it did say last week and that is why I asked for the resolutions to be split up. The big one, I want us to start get moving on. I know we have the cash. I think we can come up with the rest. It may take us a little bit of time. We still have 60 days from the time we got the bids on the building and I want to move ahead and that was my whole recommendation last week and now that you said it, maybe some of my colleagues will believe me.

Mrs. Miller: Is it appropriate to even pass these resolutions? I thought the resolutions had to wait until the second reading of the ordinance.

Mr. Dorsey: Follow me carefully here. At the moment there is available in the bond ordinance $4,529,652.78. That money is in the bond ordinance, that money has been authorized, has been appropriated and authorized for expenditure purposes. The resolution which awards the site bids, includes the base bid of $3,777,773, alternate No. 1 $140,000, alternate No. 3 to alternate No. 4 for $393,000 for a total of $4,310,773. You can authorize resolution No. 3. The money that is in hand it is not dependent upon the adoption of the amendment to the original bond ordinance. It is not dependent upon receipt of the money from the Soccer Club. Resolution No. 3, if adopted tonight will generate a certificate of availability of funds at her leisure from the CFO and it can go. The same is not true as to resolution No. 2.

2. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of Mount Olive Awarding a Contract for the Building Package in Connection with the Development of Turkey Brook Park.

3. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of Mount Olive Awarding a Contract for Site Development in Connection with the Development of Turkey Brook.

Mrs. Miller moved for adoption Resolution No. 3 and Mr. Guenther seconded that motion.

Mrs. Miller: On the bottom of page two, the second WHER AS from the bottom it talks about and adds to the amounts available from the contributions, the Soccer Club. I would like to see Turkey Brook Park contributions.

President Scapicchio: Anyone from the Public have any comment on Resolution No. 3.

Mr. Heymann, Chairman of The Turkey Brook Park Committee: I read the Daily record and found out that this was not moving forward, but I think some bolt of lightening must of come over and apparently for all the people here in the room, it looks like good news and we are preceding accordingly and that is just what I wanted to address. The committee; most of the members of the committee I think are here spending a considerable amount of time with the Council wishes in paring down this project in order to try to come in underneath the amount of funding level that we had it. Always comes down to the fact that we are going to have to rely upon the contributions of the Soccer Club, Toys "R" Us and any other entity in order to get this done. I know that today you've have done a first reading with regard to the buildings.

Mr. Dorsey: There was a first reading of the ordinance to amend the original bond ordinance to increase the total amount that can be expended. But the site development contract, so you understand it is totally within our control at the moment because there is sufficient money left in the existing ordinance and account for that contract.

Mr. Heymann: That will move forward and I understand that and hopefully there will be the requisite amount of funds so that the structures will also go up. I knew there was some discussion last week, I think with some questions regarding those structures, maybe we can delay that and that is not going to work. It is not going to work for this group of people . We want a nice facility there and I think that the fact that 25 port-johns lined up in a row would not be exactly what I had envisioned. Maybe we are a week behind. The committee spent a considerable amount of time of getting this project ready. We wanted to go out to bid for March 1, 2002. I would really just like to thank the Council for straightening this out in the week's time that the Daily Record was able to put together these stories of Turkey Brook being delayed again. I really want to enjoy my retirement. I don't want to come back here anymore. It is nothing personal against you people, but I really want to just get Turkey Brook moving, get on to the second phase. Some of these phases here from the baseball organization have been there from the 10 years I am there. They must have more kids than I can count. They want their kids to get to play on this field. Next year we really would hope to have it going and hopefully your questions are answered on the buildings. That is really all I wanted to say. We will have a meeting in a couple weeks to make sure that the developer is on the same page as us.

President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the public on this resolution? Seeing none we will close the public portion. Any Council comments?

Mr. Dorsey: This resolution does call for the appropriation of the soccer money but it is not necessary for the certificate of availability of funds to be issued. I have simply put it in here so that it is complete but Mrs. Jenkins now claims she has already issued the certificate of availability, so let's go.

Mr. Rattner: I just want to say so there is no doubt. I do support the buildings, I actually went through the plans. They are good looking buildings, they are going to be functional and it is a good value. The big concern I had last week is whether we could have been delayed in the paperwork because we did not have the funds. We are still gong to have to work on that. My plan is hopefully we can resolve everything within 60 days. Not to go to rebid. We are very very close. We are probably going to come up with some extra funds and at the same working on the budget it is difficult. I just want to make sure that we could go forward, that we would start with the bull dozers immediately, and start putting in the fields.

Mrs. Miller: I just have one question. Would it be appropriate to put a deadline date when this contractor has to be finished by?

Mr. Buczynski: I think the bid specs call for six months.

Mr. Rattner: There is also liquidated damages for everyday they don't deliver on time.

Mrs. Miller: So that does not need to be in the resolution because it is in the contract.

Tom Malavsi: The contract calls for the pond to be built April 30, 2002. Utilities including storm, drainage by May 15, 2002 the remaining site utility construction by August 16, 2002. All ball fields including fence, irrigation system and seeding September 15, 2002. All other landscaping by October 31, 2002. All the seeded areas grown in by June first 2003. That essentially gives the project two full growing seasons.

Mr. Rattner: To understand the completion date. On section C, the liquidated damages is $500.00 per day so the contractor has the incentive to get it done on time.

ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously

Mr. Dorsey: Mrs. Miller you could move your resolution dealing with the building package with the explicated understanding that it cannot go forward with the building package until the second reading and adoption of the amendment to the ordinance and the specific receipt of the $200,000 from the Soccer Club. Those restrictions are contained in here.

Mr. Perkins: I move for adoption of Resolution No. 2 under non-consent and Mr. Greenbaum seconded that motion.

President Scapicchio: Any public comment on Resolution No. 2?

Bill Sohl, Budd Lake, NJ: As much as I would like to know that everybody would see that passed, I understand the predicament you are in financially. I would simply suggest to table it, and bring it back up at the appropriate time when the money is in the appropriate place because the one thing that has to happen is this has to be approved. Mr. Heymann took my line relative to the port-john. As many of you remember I have not been a fan of those no matter where they are. It would be absolutely abominable for us to have an opening day at Turkey Brook somewhere down the road with port-johns in the background. Again I think the proper course of action or our best course of action would be for the Council to table it at this point and just put it on for the appropriate time when you can do it. Thank you.

President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the Public on this resolution? Seeing none we will close the public portion on Resolution No. 2. Council Comments?

Mr. Rattner: I am going to vote no just because I think we could get it completed after we get all the finances lined up knowing that we have $200,000 in change orders still sitting that was not accounted for or encumbered in the first part, the soil removal and we still have $50,000 we have to budget for in the soft costs. When we put those together we are actually above what we actually have. We are going to have to look at some other areas to find the couple dollars that's not even contingencies. I just want to make sure that we do it once because we could vote on this now, we are still short dollar wise, and we're going to have to try re-voting on it again in another two or three weeks. I think we should take the time, make sure we know how we are going forward so there are not any surprises for something at the end that we have to make a quick decision to appropriate another $1,500 from someplace else.

President Scapicchio: Steve, let me see if I could understand what you are suggesting. Is it that you think that we should either appropriate the additional $200,000. To my knowledge has not been formally requested of this Township but has been discussed with a employee of the Township reference to Voller's original proposal or would your suggestion be that we come to some sort of an agreement with Voller's before we move forward?

Mr. Rattner: Either that or just to reserve enough funds for it. The contractor is allowed just like he is allowed under this contract, they are allowed certain change orders. We have to accept them and they have to be reasonable and they have to be documental. That vendor/contractor wrote this town in October and had some discussions, the internal memos show that the person who was handling it at the time thought some of them are probably legitimate, other ones needed more work. But it would be silly to say that we don't have any liability at all. If we don't pay it, we may end up in litigation with them, then we need the legal fees which is still part of the project. I am just saying that as we go forward, lets try to get a handle on what it is, if we don't come to an agreement at least put away the money so we don't have to worry that we Mr. Rattner (cont'd): are short and then we can't move forward with any change orders or regular work because we don't have enough available funds without increasing the bond again and finding other places to find the funds.

President Scapicchio: Steve, do you want to just let the Public know specifically what the issue is? There was a memo dated October 20, 2001 that I just came in receipt of Monday morning. Mr. Buczynski faxed it to my office on Friday. There are two memos in front of me. One is dated October 20, 2001 and it is to Robert Casey who was the Director of Special Projects for the Municipality and it is in reference to Turkey Brook Recreation Park and it is from Vollers' Excavating and Construction Inc. In this letter there is a request for 12 change orders. It is my understanding that the work that's contained within these change orders has been completed. There was a memo back to Voller's dated October 22, 2001 from Mr. Casey where he agreed at least in principle to some of these change orders. He questioned some of the change orders and further study needed to be done on some of the other change orders. To the best of my knowledge, none of these change orders were ever brought before the Council although that may not be required.

Mr. Dorsey: I can't think of anything more inappropriate than trying to discuss whether these proposed change orders are appropriate or inappropriate at a Public Meeting when certainly no analysis has been done. I would recommend that you not discuss this.

Mr. Rattner: I just want to say in general terms, and these questions were answered by Mr. Buczynski when I questioned the contract we have, and what kind of cases can you have change orders. I mean there are a lot of things you find in the field. Actually the stuff that is on here are the same things he said we would be liable for as we go forward. We know that they hit rock and redesigned some of the fields and moved them. That would give rise to a change order. Of course you can have a change order going down. When we request them to do something different, I just saw this for the first time over the weekend and it looks like it is still an open issue, just like it is with every contract. We have our change orders. There is a certain amount of negotiations back and forth and usually we come to some sort of an agreement. We don't want to end up in litigation most of the time. I am just saying that these are expenses that we have to look at as a potential liability. If we have to pay for it, it has to come out of the same Bond Ordinance and the same funding we have now. Let's address it and make sure we have enough money put aside so that if it does come down that we owe it we could do it without any problems with the other contract going forward. That is why I think Mr. Sohl was saying just table it and I think we could do that within a 60-day window that we have with the contactor because I don't want to lose and go to bid again because we lose about three months.

Mr. Buczynski: If I could just add, since Bob Casey left, we have recently picked this up and we have had some meetings with Voller's to discuss the change orders. At this point it is still under discussion, they need to give us some more additional information so we could advise recommendations to the Council where to go relative to what if, any should be, change orders to pay Voller's back. Right now I can't report on that.

President Rattner: Thanks, Gene. Right now we have Resolution No. 2 on the table. What is the Council's pleasure? Take a vote or do you want to make a motion to table?

Mr. Rattner made a motion to table resolution No. 2 and Mrs. Miller seconded that motion.

ROLL CALL: Defeated. Mr. Rattner, Mrs. Miller, Mr. Guenther voted yes.
Mr. Greenbaum, Mr. Perkins, Mr. Spino and President
Scapicchio voted no.

President Scapicchio: Resolution No. 2 is back on the table for discussion.

2. Resolution of the Township Council of the Township of Mount Olive Awarding a Contract for the Building Package in Connection with the Development of Turkey Brook Park.

Mr. Spino moved Resolution No. 2 understanding the implementation and connotations that Mr. Dorsey put on.

President Scapicchio: We have that resolution back on the table, we have a second. Is there any public comment on that resolution?

Mr. Heymann: I think John Dorsey covered it perfectly when he indicated that you could proceed with this window of 60-days. Those were some of the questions that you wanted to be answered. Those of us who have sat on the Turkey Brook Project do not want to continue to see this be delayed. If it is delayed beyond the 60 days because we can't put the agreements together, the funding is not there, that is understandable. But to delay it again at this point in time is not acceptable to us. Again, we have made cuts in your budget in this project more than what we really wanted to in order to make every effort to get it to where it is at. I urge you to please, pass these buildings at this point in time. Let the clock start ticking. John will do his usual good job. When it is all said and done the money will be there and we will get this thing done. If we have learned any lesson in Mt. Olive, delay is not one of our strong points. It only costs us more money. Lets get off the dime and get this thing done and please pass this today. I am glad you did not table this. There is no basis to do that. If it does not happen within 60-days, it will automatically expire anyway. Lets just proceed accordingly. I think I speak for the committee and the other hundred people that probably did not expect that little bit of what just of happened to go on or they would be back in here. So please lets keep this moving, if it does not happen, I am sure John will advise all of you and we could sit and discuss a suitable resolution.

President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the Public?

Mr. Sohl: John, maybe I misunderstood, I did not realize you could go forward with this tonight and without triggering a jeopardy situation financially. So if that was the case then my understanding before was inaccurate and I would just like to correct that. If there is anyway you could vote yes, I fully agree with Ron. I vote yes and let the 60-day clock start.

President Scapicchio: Thank you. Anyone else from the public on this Resolution?

Mr. Guenther: The reason why I voted to table, I will tell you why. I'd like an explanation of the ramification of what Mr. Rattner said on the $200,000 on the change orders and how that effects. From what I understand from Mr. Dorsey this is not connected with this, but where would the money come from? Something has to be negotiated here. Apparently some extra money is due. Would that jeopardize this project?

Mr. Dorsey: Let me go through it again for you Mr. Guenther. This Resolution contains restrictions and conditions in it. One of the conditions is you have to adopt on the second reading the ordinance to amend the bond ordinance, which would then authorize the additional amounts to be expended. It is specifically conditioned upon the receipt of the $200,000 from the Soccer Club. When those items are disposed of, Mrs. Jenkins is in a position to issue a certificate of availability of funds. That will leave you with a contingency fund for both the site work and the building project $280,000. Roughly 5.5% contingency. Mr. Rattner would probably say that could be light. It could be these other costs that are hanging out there. Sometimes those costs hang out there for three or four years. That's the issue.

Mr. Greenbaum: I understand Mr. Rattner's concerns and I understand what John just said about even if we were to deal with these contingencies, we would still have enough money and the soft costs currently to fund both projects, and still have some money left over once the supplemental bond ordinance goes forward. I would be very surprised if down the road we did not need to fund this project additional dollars based upon change orders. That is really what Mr. Rattner's concerns are. The bottom line is I think we need this project. We have the money now and I am prepared to move forward and I hope that oversight on the project will keep the costs down as low as possible, but I am prepared to move forward with it tonight.

Mr. Perkins: I share a concern as I think most of the residents do here. It is a two-fold thing. One is that we want to make sure we have enough money obviously to pay for this. The second is that we want to provide the youth as well as the rest of the residents because there was passive recreation there, someplace to finally go. Provided that the funds are available, I don't see the necessity to discuss change orders if the proper format for addressing a change order is that it has to be signed off on before the work is performed,
then normally your not chasing it after ex post facto which seems to be the case on this first page at Turkey Brook. I think with a little more due diligence on the part of our overseers, we won't be faced with twelve change orders after the fact. That being the case, that is why I move and I vote to pass this.

Mr. Dorsey: I just want to add one thing. There are certain monies that are not included in this resolution because they are not yet ours although they are contracted for. One is $133,333.00 which is the final payment from AIG/Baker which I assume that you would devote to this project as you have the other two-thirds. The other $350,000 will come from Toll Brothers probably in July or August when they receive
Mr. Dorsey (cont'd): their DEP approval and take title to what I refer to as the r-trap. That is the other element out there, but again I caution you that money is not in hand, not yet.

President Scapicchio: Thanks John anyone else on the Council?

ROLL CALL: Passed Unanimously with the exception of Mr. Rattner who voted no.

President Scapicchio: This brings us to the final public portion of this Council Meeting. Anyone from the Public have any comment on anything?


Toni Ayers, Sandshore Road, Budd Lake, NJ: I have a recommendation. The first phase is four soccer fields. I have never gotten an answer on why we can't have a municipal pool. I say put the other five soccer fields some place and build us a municipal pool on that land. Could anyone give me an answer why we can't have a municipal pool? It would pay for itself. You have memberships, people join.

Mr. Spino: There was interest in a municipal pool a long time ago, but I think you are probably the only person that has ever come up here that I know of and asked for a municipal pool.

Mrs. Ayers: That is because people don't come to meetings. Why don't you take a poll? Put a poll in the Chronicle and see who wants a pool.

Mr. Spino: I am not arguing whether we should have a municipal pool or not. That is not the issue. Certainly you cannot say that people do not come to meetings. You just saw the room was filled now everybody is gone because they got what they wanted.

Mrs. Ayers: Yes. For their own little agenda, yes.

Mr. Spino: Because they got what they wanted. Do you think that if they wanted a municipal pool that we wouldn't be interested. There has not been an interest in a municipal pool way back when people thought we should buy the Racket Chalet, the old YMCA on Flanders-Netcong road there and make it a municipal pool. There is not interest that I know of.

Mrs. Ayers: You don't know that for sure. I know a lot of people who will not go in the lake. I am not going to have snakes crawling around my ankles. There are others who feel the same way. Why do we have to go to Hackettstown?

Mr. Spino: Again, I am not arguing whether we should have a municipal pool or not. It's just that there has not been an outfall of interest in Mt. Olive in the last 10 years that I know of.

Mrs. Ayers: I say again, take a poll and you will find the interest.

Mr. Spino: I don't know if I should go looking for it.

Mr. Guenther: Could I make a comment? The squeaky wheel gets the oil. I understand it is difficult to get people out at meetings. But you see the results. A strong Soccer Club, a strong baseball club. They organize to get action. This has been done before, to get action you need to organize. Try to do a poll. I remember a long time ago, I don't know how long ago it was, there was something on the ballot I believe in connection with the school about building a pool. It was resoundingly defeated by the voters.

Mrs. Ayers: That is a different story.

Mr. Guenther: Well it was somewhat similar because it was a pool for use of the Township. Granted that was long time ago, the demographics of the Township have changed. I hate to put the burden on you Toni, I would like a pool too.

Mrs. Ayers: It just seems that from day one that it was a done deal that this was going to be soccer fields and baseball fields.

Mr. Guenther: Toni, they took the soccer fields away when they built the Middle School. There is a dire need for the soccer fields so there is a reason for that.

Mrs. Ayers: I called the Board of Education. We have a total right now as of February 2002 of 4,384 students in our school system. Now I don't know how many kids are in the baseball program, approximately 500 in the soccer program?

Mayor Licitra: There is about 1,000 right now and growing.

Mrs. Ayers: Well my question is, what happens to the rest of the kids? I just feel that a town our size could support a municipal pool. What property is left? If you fill up Turkey Brook with fields, not much is left.

Mr. Rattner: That is really not true Toni, Turkey Brook, B & H, and some other property we are talking about probably close to 500 acres up there. Even if we build it all the way out, and this is only one I don't know where we are going to get the three. We are talking about I believe it is less than 40% of just the Turkey Brook property. Then we have the 200 something acres of B & H that we weren't thinking of putting the soccer fields over there, baseball someplace else. It seemed a lot better to put everything together. One parking lot, one set of bathrooms, and it did. That way it made sense. We have picked up in that area a lot of property. If there is ever interest, I am sure there is plenty of property to go and build a pool. A pool is not going to need that much space. The parking lot is probably going to be bigger than the pool area.

Mrs. Ayers: How about a poll? I said it three times. A poll.

Mr. Guenther: Why don't you organize a petition drive in Town to get people to sign a petition who want a pool?

Mrs. Ayers: Ron Heymann said he did not want to come back, he is younger than I am and he wants to retire.

Mr. Rattner: But he just got wanted, now you get what you want.

Mrs. Ayers: Well, you have thrown down a challenge for me. In other words, put their money where their mouths are. These people that say they want a municipal pool, and they don't want to go to Hackettstown anymore, why can't we have a municipal pool, they need to come and tell you that, or a petition drive. Okay, so there is no good reason that we can't have a pool other than demand. Is that it in a nutshell?

President Scapicchio: Demand and interest Toni.

Mrs. Miller: I think that there is one restriction from the DEP is that we can't have enclosed building. So an indoor pool would be inappropriate. I know that the hockey people, they wanted to have a hockey rink there, but that is an enclosed building and the DEP would not allow something like that. So there are certain guidelines that we have to follow from the DEP.

Mrs. Ayers: A pool also allows you to service people who are blind, disabled, mentally disabled, seniors, little kids. There people could all use a pool. It is not limited. You get families. Pop comes homes from work, eventually, the pool stays open until 8:00 and the whole family could go swimming. I feel it is just as important as soccer fields.

Mrs. Miller: Of course the way water restrictions are going, people may not be able to fill their pools this year.

Mrs. Ayers: This is not going to happen this year anyhow. Hackettstown got some federal funds, and we'll this is not the right time to approach the Federal Government for funds I don't think for a pool, but do everything else. It can be done, that is how I feel. Okay you have challenged me. We'll see.

President Scapicchio: Toni, I think if there is interest amongst the Public for a community pool that this Council will certainly explore that. Thank you.

Jill Daggon, Recreation Supervisor: Toni, we are aware of a request for a municipal pool. Some considerations in light of that is again what Charlene has brought up with Green Acres Property for it to be enclosed would be a problem on Green Acres Property. To have a pool that is just operational for two and a half months out of the summer is not cost effective at this time. I have come from an aquatics background. I have worked at the YMCA for five years. This is an area that I am familiar with. We do have a recreation Master Zoning Plan. That request was submitted to the State as a request for funding for a municipal pool, Mrs. Daggon (cont'd): but it would be an indoor enclosed pool. In terms of needs for seniors, for handicapped, all of that is taken care of at the beach. We do have a sand wheelchair. We have programs for autistic children and other handicapped people, not everybody enjoys the lake. I understand that. But for a pool to be effective for the Township, it should be an indoor pool. In our recreation Master Zoning Plan, we have to take into consideration all the private facilities as well as Public Facilities. So between the Solar Swim Club, Vasa Park, the other pools that are in the Township, right now that does meet our requirements but we are looking down the road in the future.

Dennis McDonald, 15 Tamarack Road: I just have two questions, non-related. It was brought to my attention that it was a possibility that the Council was considering some kind of a ban on recreational hunting in the Township, was that a possibility?

President Scapicchio: Absolutely not true. There was someone here earlier before the meeting started, Lisa had some Public inquiry and has answered the question the same way. The council is not looking to band, prohibit, or control hunting within the borders of Mt. Olive Township.

Mr. McDonald: All this talk about Turkey Brook Park. What contingency plans have been made for the future control of deer population on that property now that there is no hunting allowed on the existing Turkey Brook Park as evidence with Mendham and Princeton and other Towns? I think they are spending I think $400.00 per deer to eliminate them by professional shooters now, have you thought about these long range plans, population wise. Biologically you are going to have a problem up there four or five years from now without any kind of population control. I am just asking has anyone thought about that with all their other plans about the park. Is there a possibility, maybe, of a control like Mendham has in Mendham Township similar down the road to that area because of having a great deal of experience in this I have watched, for example, Hercules down in Kenvil getting over populated, Stripping the trees, destroying the vegetation and then at some point it got to a point where the disease was tremendous and they brought in massive sharpshooters in the early 60's and just killed hundreds and hundreds of creatures because they were diseased. I think you have potential here for a problem that you should address in the future.

President Scapicchio: I think when we start planning for the maintenance for that facility that certainly is a time and the appropriate place to address that. Thank you.

Mr. Spino: I would like to make sure that Mr. McDonald knows when we are going to have the discussion on the pieces of five acre properties that we were talking about hunting on. I would advise you to keep your guard up just so you know what is going on about hunting in the Town.

Mr. McDonald: I was just told that there was no discussion or ban.

Mr. Spino: This is not a ban, we are going to be discussing some issues and it has to do mainly with making sure the hunters know exactly where there property lines are that they are hunting on. We will be discussing it. If you give your name and address to Lisa, we will let you know ahead of time when this will be discussed at a future workshop.

Mr. McDonald: I also think that it would behoove the Township Council to utilize the State Resources Fish and Game personnel, and people whose legal abilities are far greater than our local police force where they could enforce the existing ordinances of the State without recurring expenses on our Town.

President Scapicchio: Let me tell you what I have done so far. The public has brought up the issue of hunters that hunt on property leased by hunting clubs, hunting on their property. Actually moving off the leased property. There are two things specificly that this Council will address at a future workshop. First, that the property owner is required to supply the Township with the name the address and phone number of a contact person responsible within that gun club that leases that property. The purpose of that is so that the Police Department and /or the Township Clerk have a telephone number and a name if there is an emergency or a complaint we have a contact person to contact. The second issue that is going to be put on the table for discussion is that of one where we make it a requirement where the property owner is responsible to make sure that all the hunters that hunt on his/her property know that exact boundaries of that particular piece of property. Lisa has reached out to the Chief of Police, Ed Katona, and has requested a list of any and all names or numbers of hunting club members he knows of so that she could invite them to future workshop meetings. She also has the names and phone numbers of the State Officials and some local residents or hunters who have voiced concern over this issue. When it is to the point to be scheduled for a workshop those individuals will certainly be invited and encouraged to participate in that discussion. Anyone else from the Public?

Colleen Labow Budd Lake NJ: I just want to say that at last Tuesday's meeting, when you were faced with the resolution and the ordinance. I think that was really great the way that you went forward when you did, and had a chance to review everything. It seems you feel much more comfortable with the decisions that you made tonight. I also want to say as far as the lake goes, I have been going to the lake for years and the staff at the lake is phenomenal. For the bad rap that our lake has it is really I think unfounded because it has been a very enjoyable experience. How many places can you go where you can bring your cooler or what ever and sit there and enjoy the sun, the kids are playing, you have activities and it is a very enjoyable experience. As far as for the children, there are the 4,000 students in our school system, more than half of them are involved in sports. My child happens to be in the minority that is not involved in sports and that is why I would like to see our teen center and things of that nature move forward so we can satisfy the needs of all the students in our community. Thank you.

President Scapicchio: Anyone else from the Public? Seeing none, we will close the Public Portion.




Motion made for adjournment. All in Favor, none opposed. The Meeting was Adjourned at 8:35 pm.

Council President

I, LISA M LASHWAY, Township Clerk of the Township of Mount Olive do hereby certify that the foregoing Minutes is a true and correct copy of the Minutes approved at a legally convened meeting of the Mount Olive Township Council duly held on May 14, 2002.

Mount Olive Township Clerk




2012 Mount Olive Township. All rights reserved.